A Little Blast from the Past Part II
April 7, 2008 by Ingrid Schlueter
A reader sent me a number of links to clothing sites that promote their “modest” clothing. I found them all very interesting, particularly the website selling bridal gowns for “Latter Day Brides”. The Latter Day Saints emphasize modesty in their teachings and have created a website with wedding gowns that actually contain tops. For years, the look in the bridal world has been what I call the “bath towel look”: no sleeves, bare shoulders. Despite all the braying about diversity these days, it seems to be something of a challenge for brides to find a gown that contains sleeves. My husband frequently plays trumpet for weddings around the city and has done so for 30 years now. It was 20-below with windchill last winter in our state, but the brides all came down the aisle with their “bath towel” dresses in those cold, old churches. Winter brides used to have all kinds of scope for sleeves and even elegant trim on high collars on their dresses. It was a regal look, unique to a winter wedding. Not so any more. Whether you are bone thin or overweight, if you’re a bride, you’re expected to have bare arms and shoulders. The wedding website had some beautiful gowns with actual sleeves. True diversity would offer some options for brides who want a different look. I wish there were more such places that offered true diversity. There’s a sameness to things these days.
I am amazed to witness what appears to be a 19th-century revival among some believers in the quest for “modest” clothing. As I told the reader, I don’t believe that the only way to be modest is to revert to the Victorian era, but judging by the various websites, apparently many do. Here is an article of clothing, gentle women readers, that is available on several of these sites. They are “bloomers”. These bloomers are apparently to be worn under the calico outfits for “modesty” purposes. In that most of the dresses offered come to the ankles, I am trying to picture an eventuality that would result in bloomers being necessary for modesty reasons. Short of a Category 5 hurricane, I couldn’t.
May I say something? Living in Babylon grieves those of us who love the Lord Jesus Christ. Walking through a mall, buying groceries, even driving down the street as I did yesterday in Chicago, we are hit in the face with billboards, magazines, ads and women that are all about being sexually provocative. We want to be different. We don’t want to raise our daughters to live and dress that way. We want to honor the Lord and promote purity. But in our haste for modesty, let’s not react in a way that is poorly thought out and that ultimately does not glorify the Lord in heaven. What do I mean by that? I’ll elaborate.
Throughout history, clothing and the statement it makes has changed. Fundamentalist churches today would be horrified if one of their elders or male church members arrived at church in a velvet waist coat with gold buttons, a white blouse with lace on the sleeves, a curly wig that came to his shoulders, velvet knickers, white stockings and shoes with significant heels, pointed toes and a gold buckles on them. He would be viewed as effeminate and truly in spiritual need of help. I have just described, however, the attire of America’s founding fathers. Go back still further to the Puritan era and the men’s hairstyles are still long, without ears visible. The drawings of Christian giants like Thomas Boston, Thomas Watson, Jonathan Edwards, and John Newton, all show the same type hair. It was the dress of the day. Go back still further, and men didn’t wear trousers at all. They wore what we would call dresses. They wore a shift underneath an outer coat. No pants existed back then. That was in our Lord’s day. So what is my point? My point is that dress and hairstyles for men and women will change. Which era is most godly based on dress? None of them. Godliness starts inside, folks. But some in the Christian realm are telling women that in order to be godly and modest, they need to return to the Victorian era with bloomers, long calico dresses, even aprons as offered on one website. Why not go back to the Pilgrim era and dress that way? Would it not be even more godly to go back to the post-Garden of Eden time for mankind and wear animal skins, in that those were the clothes that God himself constructed? Of course not.
While it is more of a challenge to find clothes that cover modestly in our era, it is not impossible. I am not one of those who subscribes to the “bloomer” philosophy of modesty. We can look as though we are present in the 21st Century, without looking like one of Babylon’s lost women. It just takes some ingenuity and some careful searching. While it may be fun to dress up like Little House on the Prairie for an hour, I don’t believe that generating snickers and wide-eyed stares as you walk down the street ultimately brings glory to God and can hinder one’s Christian witness. We are to be a peculiar people, but not because our bloomer legs are sticking out from underneath multiple petticoats which are sticking out from our floor length Victorian costumes. Readers? Your thoughts.
**In a bizarre twist, one website that offers old order Amish clothing, (I’m not sure how these Amish would order online without credit cards, electricity, the internet, etc.) also features a page from Italian Vogue Magazine which featured some Amish chic styles with their products. Isn’t this, um, missing the point of not being worldly, etc. which these women are trying to achieve? What a strange messed up confusion this all is. When teachings go extra biblical, i.e., godliness through a style of clothing, things get very strange, very fast.**
Well said, well said.
While those are gorgeous dresses, I’m really not sure I want to support Mormons . . . just a thought. I’m sure there’s Christians websites out there who make the same sort of clothes. And while strapless gowns are in style right now, I don’t think anyone is “expected” to wear them–I’ve seen plenty of other styles of dresses.
Um, yes, well said. Modest clothes can be found. Even at everyday stores. Jc Penney, Sears, Target all have wonderful things if you are willing to look around. Also if one sews, you can alter the patterns a bit to make the necklines a bit higher or the skirts longer. Its not hard, and if you dont know how, you can find someone to teach you.
I remember going up to Pennensula State Park in Door County, there was a family of plainly dressed people there. They must have been dying on the inside. The weather was in the 90’s and they were all wearing LONG sleeves, long dresses and trying to ride bikes. Poor kids. I am sure they were trying to stand out, and they did, kinda like a sore thumb. You couldnt help but watch them. And you know, I am sure no one was saying “look how Godly they are”. I am sure almost everyone was thinking “arent they HOT???”
Jennifer
Merry,
Wasn’t suggesting that people frequent the Mormon store, just commenting on how they saw a niche and filled it.
Well said, Ingrid. You’ve done it again- put a voice to what I have been feeling and thinking. My teenage daughter and I have been online shopping (since the stores rarely carry any long skirts- or skirts at all for that matter!). We did purchase some from a Jewish site http://www.tznuis.com but were sad to discover how lax Christian sites are in producing comely clothes. I don’t want my clothes to stand out- to say, hey I wish I was born at the same time as Laura Ingalls Wilder. (Even though, I love that look for people who can sew well!)
You know, our clothing can say a lot about us- are we hippie homeschoolers, denim jumper ladies, old west lovers, Harley bike riders, bar hoppers, or just classically modestly dressed? What are we trying to say? Are we identifying with a certain “look” or is our focus on our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ? Our “look” can hinder our witness whether it is too immodest, too modern, or too outdated. We all would do well to concern ourselves with the adornment of the heart and just dress simply and cover “our nakedness.”
Just my 2 cents! And of course, God is bigger than our clothing choices but often the world makes a fast impression by what it first sees!
Thanks again for your ministry, Ingrid!
~mel
Okay, I was just wondering. It just seems like the religions that require women to dress modestly and have strict dress codes are otherwise really awful religions– Mormanism (especially fundamental Mormans), Islam, etc. It seems to me that even though they require women to cover themselves from head to toe, they tend to treat women badly. This is something I’ve been pondering lately and thought I’d bring it up here.
I’m very thankful for my freedom in Christ, and while I completely agree that women need to be modest, it needs to be a choice they make for themselves. Everyone has different views of modesty as well. I personally don’t find strapless gowns for special occasions to be immodest, although I agree, during winter is a little silly! Also, I kind of agree with what Jennifer was saying about the Amish kids– it’s good to be modest but sometimes it can be overdone . . . there’s nothing wrong with shorts on a one hundred degree day!
Any thoughts?
Ingrid,
I’m so glad you addressed this topic. First of all, even though I’m not married…yet…I still dream of “the perfect wedding dress”. And in my dreams this dress has SLEEVES!! I’m dismayed at the current trend of sleeveless wedding gowns. And it’s not even so much a question of modesty, although I do agree many of the dresses are quite immodest. For me, it’s about what is becoming to a woman and what is practical. My arms are horrible, therefore I do not wear sleeveless ANYTHING. I’m resigned to the fact that if that day ever comes (God willing!!) I will have to have my dress made.
As to the Victorian era dressing, I must admit that when I first began to read sites that promoted this sort of thing, I came under severe condemnation. I don’t have nor wear many dresses. Not because I don’t like them, but I just can’t seem to find anything that looks right on me, especially after the birth of my daughter. Pants are just easier. But I do love wearing dresses. This really worked on me for awhile until God convicted me that it was my heart that mattered and that in turn would display itself in my clothing, dresses or not. Many have become so legalistic in this regard and it saddens me. God also reminded me of the many Godly christian women I’ve known who love Him with all their hearts and yet, they don’t wear long dresses or bloomers or dresses at all, for that matter.
Thanks again for addressing this!
Libby
Ingrid,
I love to look at those modest clothing websites. I think I was born in the wrong era. I love to wear longer feminine dresses and such.
Blessings,
Gina
oops! I just realized I mis-typed the address for the modest Jewish clothing site. It is http://www.tznius.com Sorry! I hope I didn’t send anyone on a wild goose chase!
Hi Ingrid,
I hope guys are allowed to post here! — I teach at a university, and I really dread the warmer months. I try to keep my mind focused on the topic I’m teaching, but the warmer it gets, the less the students wear. I do my best, but it’s really distracting. I much prefer teaching in the winter, when at least everyone’s fully dressed.
Some of the women — well, I’m sure you see it all around you. I always wonder — do they dress like that (skin-tight, skimpy, etc.) just because it’s what everyone else does, and they don’t realize how they look? or do they make an effort to dress that way? I mean, just buy the same shirt, but two sizes larger…it’s not that hard, is it?
Anyway, I wish you could come and do a fashion show for the young women…
Best,
Christian
I listened to a message online by Albert N. Martin entitled
‘Validating the Gospel in Modesty.
In the message he cited the 10 things that most frequently tempt men to think unclean thoughts.
Here they are.
1. Dresses or skirts with lengthy slits.
2. Dresses or skirts which hug the buttocks.
3. Any upper garment that hugs the breasts.
4. Unbuttoned blouses, low necklines or cleaveage on any upper body garment.
5. Sleeveless blouses or dresses with large armholes.
6. Low rise skirts or pants.
7. See through clothing of any kind.
8. Skirts and dresses that are too short.
9. Slacks, pants or jeans that hug the thighs, buttocks and crotch.
10. Bared mid-riff and back.
His plea was to the women in his church, because the standard they once had was eroding.
But I think we could all learn from this.
God bless.
Christian,
While there may be exceptions to the rule, I believe women know exactly what they’re doing when they dress in tight clothes, etc. Being female, and not always having had a Christian perspective, I can tell you that while men lust after women, women lust after being desired by men when they are sinfully minded. For years, I have read instructions to women in Christian books that run something like this:
“Ladies, you need to realize the effect you have on men. You’re not stimulated by sight, men are. So please realize that you are affecting the men in a bad way by dressing immodestly.”
I say, baloney. Women, stop idolizing yourself and craving to be worshiped. Stop lusting after being viewed as “hot”. It doesn’t hurt to remind young girls of this but as for women, well, they know exactly the reaction they are going for. Our culture approves of this and trains young girls from the time they are tiny how to be “hot” and desirable. I saw that Sears is offering T-shirts for toddlers with the Cheetah Girls leering off the front. Unbelievable.
Thus, the difficulty of finding modest clothes these days, and I don’t mean prairie costumes. I don’t envy having to work in an environment like you described. Any Christian man living in a culture like ours needs an extra measure of grace and strength to keep his eyes on the Lord. God bless you.
Hi Ingrid,
I have been looking through the websites. The first thing that jumped in my mind when I looked at Plainly Dressed site was the poor girls that are being taken from the Warren Jeffs polygamist compound this week. On the other hand when I looked at the Mormon wedding dress site, I wished I could have found a dress similar to these my wedding. The closest I could get to modest was a boat neck dress that came up higher than most. It took me going to 12 stores and trying on many, many dresses.
As a Christian woman I am called by God to honor Him in all I do (wear) and say (and my clothing speaks for me even when I don’t say a word. I wish that Christian women would talk to their fathers, husbands, and most importantly their Savior about their clothing.
A good question a woman can ask herself before she leaves the house is, “Does my appearance bring glory to God or myself?” As a younger woman in the church, Titus 2:5 says I am, “to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.”
Every women ought to strive in their dress to be self-controlled, pure, kind to men and submissive to my husband and God. God is not honored in immodest dress. Maybe the best question is, “Lord, does my outfit revile your word?”, because it can.
God Bless!
I appreciate the point you are making, Ingrid, and I’m one that does not like to stand out in a crowd, though I don’t go along with the immodesty that so much of the crowd follows these days. But I have a little different view as well. Living in Pennsylvania, it isn’t unusual to see the type of clothing on those sites to which you linked, among the conservative Plain people. Their dress does “stick out” and can look ridiculous when compared to the way most everyone else is dressing. Then I look at photos of how people dressed years ago, say in the 70’s, and think how ridiculous we looked then, and it’s humbling to realize that years from now I’ll look back on how I dress now and think “how silly I looked,” and I realize I’m just as ridiculous in my clothing as the Plain people, I’m just slow on the uptake. So I appreciate seeing the Plain people who have the courage to be different, and from the ones I know, it isn’t pride nor legalism, but their way to honor the Lord. Like conservative Protestant or Catholic nuns, or the way Quakers or those in the Salvation Army were noted for dressing, for some examples, the difference is part of a group identity, and in this area where it is known what manner of people the Plain people are, is more apt to bring respect than ridicule. It isn’t unknown for non-Christians to improve their speech and behavior around someone wearing a clerical collar, or a nun, or a woman who is dressed in a modest, feminine manner, and I think the Plain people in their clothing can have the same effect, and I’m grateful for any such positive effect on society. I’ve also known of non-Christians starting conversations on spiritual matters with those whom they identify as Christians because of their clothing. However, not being part of any such group, I’ll just continue to wear what will one day be considered strange clothing, the way theirs is considered now.
Hi Donna,
Christian women can choose to dress however they like, and if they want to dress as Amish or Mennonites, that is up to them. My point is that it is not more “godly” to do so. There is the belief among the cradle “plain” people, and some who are recent converts, that it is more godly to dress as 19th century women did. That’s why they do it. It goes along with the anabaptist pietism that form their beliefs. We do not, according to the Scriptures, earn points for godliness for choosing one era of dress over another. Some converts to the “plain people” way of life actually do believe that. I know Christians who have embraced a quasi-Mennonite way of life. I say quasi because they are not Mennonite, but like to dress like them. The truth is, even within the Mennonite and Amish communities, the rules vary dramatically about dress and lifestyle. Some are far more flexible than others. I do not admire a woman who dresses like the 19th century more than a Christian woman in the 21st century who is modest. Unless we can earn our way to heaven through works righteousness and unless God has clearly stated a preference for dress in a particular era (he hasn’t), our dress styles reflect nothing more than our own preferences and convictions.
On a related note, the Amish and Mennonites teach things that are extra-biblical. For example, I have a book for young girls published by Rod and Staff that instructs girls that if they go barelegged in the summer under their dresses, that they are sinful and immodest. They are instructed that they must where their long dark stockings instead. I’d really like a chapter and verse in Scripture for that one. The same book states that a girl was tempted to train to be a nurse, but God convicted her of her “rebellion” and she gave up her “worldly dream”. That is not godliness, that is total unbiblical legalism that has no justification in the Word of God. The “plain people” often add unbiblical burdens to the backs of others with their human inventions–all girls must wear their hair up and under a “veil” at all times, that sort of thing–and cause conflict and confusion. If God has stated something in His Word, fine. Otherwise we have Christian freedom and liberty to exercise our own consciences in these matters.
So while it’s charming to look at Amish girls walking down the road like we have in Hillsboro, Wisconsin or in Pennsylvania, I can’t say that I admire people for living a life of deprivation because they believe they are earning their way to heaven that way. That is what the Amish teach. In every age, we can cover ourselves properly if we want to.
So well said Ingrid!
I always thought the Biblical intstruction for modesty meant to not draw undue attention to yourself with your clothing, hair, jewellery. And sometimes it seems as if those who are dressed so quaintly modest stand out and do draw a lot more attention to themselves.
I agree with everything in your post Ingrid. I was at a wedding a few years ago in December and the bride had bare arms and shoulders - unfortunately this is the current trend. When I married in 1985 I wore a high necked long sleeved dress, and I remember seeing Christie Brinkley in a beautiful high necked long sleeved wedding dress that same year - it was very fashionable. Yet back in the late 60s there was a “mod” trend of sleeveless a-line mini-wedding dresses! So hopefully the pendulum will swing again soon.
I agree with your points on modesty.
A slightly different topic: Has anyone noticed prom dresses lately? Most are sheath style or have a plunging back, forget sleeves or long gloves. It’s really aweful. I saw a girl last night who was in her prom gown and she looked so embarrassed because everyone WAS staring at her. It was flesh colored and used two wide straps over the shoulders to cover the breasts. It did at lease have a narrow shash over the breasts the abdomen was covered with a very tight fitting knit sheath. Things like that may be great for models or startlets on the red carpet but how can it be appropriate for a small town prom? I really felt bad for her because it made her prom night into a self conscious ordeal. Her boyfriend wore a nice tux. Why must the girls have to go out nearly nude? I’ve looked at prom dresses in the shops and there really are not many choices available.
I would say that in light of what goes on at most proms today, on campus and off, the attire offered today for girls is actually appropriate. The entire event was highjacked decades ago. What started as a wholesome social event to celebrate the end of the school year back when my grandmother was a girl has become a multi-million dollar business, where limo rides and dresses that cost as much as wedding outfits are the “norm”. Any thought of anything beautiful and “pretty” in the dress realm is in a different universe from today’s world where girls want to look “sexy” by the age of 8. By the time girls are 16, they’re old women now in every way, and they especially want the temptress look on prom night. So the prom becomes just another sex-driven, hedonistic orgy with parents acting as enablers every step of the way. The pornification of America has completely overtaken youth culture and despite the monstrous personal consequences in so many lives, the popular media continues to glorify it. It’s heartbreaking.
Thank you for the specific list of women’s clothing items (or the lack thereof) that cause Godly men to stumble. I have known of Rev. Martin and his ministry for many years, and therefore I *believe* him, and I tremble at the thought of my being the cause of a Godly man sinning. I wish Rev. Martin had been a little more specific on point # 8, though. How short is too short? Maybe the Bible has an answer. Isaiah 47:2 speaks of judgment on Babylon, using the metaphor of a woman. It appears that baring the thigh is shameful. I have begun to re-think shorts in the summer — in deference to our Christian brothers. In thrift shops I have found shorts that come to my knees, and are almost like a split skirt. This is what I wear when I mow my lawn and play tennis. Mixed swimming? Out of the question. My skirts are mid-calf and have some fullness, and I’m a firm believer in sleeves.
Ingrid, your comments about proms are right on. Over the last 10-15 years I have observed with dismay the growing numbers of Christians (and I mean *conservative* Christians) who participate in school proms and other dances. More and more churches are even holding their own dances. I don’t understand how any Christian teen or parent can go along with this activity that by its very nature is designed to foster physical contact and break down God-given inhibitions and modesty — and all in an atmosphere of blatant and wanton promiscuity.
Proverbs chapters 5 and 7 warn us not to go anywhere near sinful situations — to avoid them entirely. I Thessalonians 5:22 warns us to avoid even the appearance of evil.
Puritan pastor Thomas Watson, who lived about 350 years ago but whose writings are still read and revered today, wrote a commentary on the Ten Commandments. The following is a summary of Rev. Watson’s exposition on the Seventh Commandment.
Question: How may we abstain from this sin [adultery]?
Answer: I shall give some directions, by way of antidote, to keep from the infection of this sin.
1. Come not into the company of a whorish woman; avoid her house, as a seaman avoids a rock. “Come not near the door of her house.” (Prov 5, verse
2. Look to your eyes. Much sin comes in by the eye.
3. Look to your lips. Take heed of any unseemly word that may enkindle unclean thoughts in yourselves or others.
4. Look in a special manner to your heart. “Keep thy heart with all diligence.” (Prov. 4:23)
5. Look to your attire. We read of the attire of a harlot. Wanton dress is a provocation to lust.
6. Take heed of evil company.
7. Beware of going to plays. [And today, Rev. Watson would probably include here most TV and movies.]
8. Take heed of mixed dancing. From dancing, people come to dalliance one with another, and from dalliance to uncleanness. There is, says Calvin, for the most part, some unchaste behaviour in dancing. Dances draw the heart to folly by wanton gestures, by unchaste touches, and by lustful looks. Chrysostom inveighed against mixed dancing in his time. Many have been ensnared by dancing. Chrysostom says, where dancing is, there the devil is. I speak chiefly of mixed dancing. We read of dances in Scripture, but they were sober and modest. Exodus 15:20-21. They were not mixed dances.
[Commentary from Carol: The one exception to the “sober and modest” occurs in Exodus 32. Be sure to read this entire chapter to see everything that happened here with the dancing.] [Additional note: Dr. Watson’s commentary was written more than300 years ago. How much *more* applicable is it to today’s dancing?!]
For what it’s worth, I just saw a story that the FLDS cult women from Texas are selling their dresses at fldsdress.com. I thought of this thread when I saw it.
Their cult was broken up and they need to support themselves. They’re badly deceived, but I do feel bad for them and their kids.
Odd world we live in.